Does german grindcore count as breakcore?

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Postby HORSE FORCE » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:14 pm

back to current value...

he is awesome, but i wouldnt consider him breakcore because of the way he uses "traditional" jungle forms. to me jungle has a buildup, pause, main chorus-y part, then a down section, then another chorus-y type part. AND it is in 4/4. current value still falls under these DJ-able jungle unwritten rules. i have seen breakcore shows where people take CV beats and string them together in a more freeform way. THEN i think it becomes breakcore. a lot of what constitutes breakcore is an abandonment of tradtional musical constructs and the element of suprise. current value is formulaic, which isnt bad, its actually good cause it makes it dj-able in a dnb context.

one of the things i see with breakcore artists as they become more popular is conforming to DJ-able song forms. guys like shitmat and bong-ra, even aaron spectre are guilty of this "conformity."

i have thought about this a lot. i dont know, what are your thoughts on the whole issue of form and time signature?

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Postby Nibiru » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:31 pm

Well, like I said, fucked up jungle. A lot of what Bong-Ra or Istari Lasterfahrer do is really to me, more fucked up jungle than breakcore, then even some of the stuff that Snares does is almost more on the jungle side of things aesthetically speaking, despite being structurally different. I think that say, if you huck a whole lot of gabber kicks into a track whose amens are distorted as fuck, but it has a jungley build, it becomes a grey area. Aesthetically it's breakcore, and I think what defines the style has as much to do with aesthetic as structure. Some producers go way out on complexity and wierd structures in a lot of tracks, and some just go for a sort of dense harshness, that comes from a hardcore aesthetic as much as a jungle aesthetic.

And even inside of jungle there's a wide variance in how tracks are built. Some have sort of quick rushy builds, some have long builds, yet some just fucking start full-on with no intro. A lot of jungle aims to be dj friendly, but a lot of it isn't always either.

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Postby HORSE FORCE » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:26 am

yeah i guess youre right. jungle still has that pegable form though. at least something in 4/4 with sections with measures in groups of 4, 8, 16 or 32. sometimes it can be fun to work within the constructs of form and see how much you can do with rhythmic variance and metric modulation.

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Postby Nibiru » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:12 am

HORSE FORCE wrote:yeah i guess youre right. jungle still has that pegable form though. at least something in 4/4 with sections with measures in groups of 4, 8, 16 or 32. sometimes it can be fun to work within the constructs of form and see how much you can do with rhythmic variance and metric modulation.


Sometimes I find it amazing just how much syncopation some of the more technical (in terms of drum sequencing) jungle producers are able to get while keeping within a typical, danceable and generally good sounding structure. But to me, that's the difference between drum n bass and jungle. Jungle seems to focus a lot more on phrasing with the drums, where dnb seems to focus a little more on bass and melodic devices. I'd have to say Current Value is a little closer to dnb than jungle for that reason. The drums aren't usually as heavily phrased and all over the place as say, Krinjah or Soundmurderer, which are pretty much as jungle as it gets.

But the same way there's sometimes a blurry line between breakcore and jungle, there's often a blurry line between jungle and dnb, and there is some stuff with a lot straighter sort of rhythms that still is more jungle than it is dnb to me.

Sometimes, I won't even use genre terms to describe what I'm making or listening to, I'll just sort of say how it's made. Like, acoustic guitar music, or analog synth music, or cut-up breakbeat music etc. Almost seems clearer to me.

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Postby HORSE FORCE » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:20 am

haha like jazz can be "acoustic saxophone and rhythm section music"

yeah i usually use jungle and dnb interchangably. jungle is more of the old skool word for it and dnb the more accepted newer term. many people stray from using the term "jungle" because of the racist connotations it holds against black people. jazz was actually a derogatory term in the beginning as well.

its the same with gabber and hardcore. in america, if you call it gabber people get mad at you. "gabber is that dutch shit" they say...

like you said, music is music. genres and subgenres are mostly used, especially in electronic music, to attract viewers. if you say you make gabber in holland, people will like it more. if you say you make hardcore in the US, people will like it more. doesnt matter to me.

if i were to use a subgenre for my music, it would be asymmetric-noisecore or something like that, but that wouldnt get many listeners, so i call it breakcore/gabber in europe and breakcore/hardcore in the US. that way i get the breakcore crowd and the gabber/hardcore crowd.

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Postby Nibiru » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:01 am

HORSE FORCE wrote:haha like jazz can be "acoustic saxophone and rhythm section music"

yeah i usually use jungle and dnb interchangably. jungle is more of the old skool word for it and dnb the more accepted newer term. many people stray from using the term "jungle" because of the racist connotations it holds against black people. jazz was actually a derogatory term in the beginning as well.

its the same with gabber and hardcore. in america, if you call it gabber people get mad at you. "gabber is that dutch shit" they say...

like you said, music is music. genres and subgenres are mostly used, especially in electronic music, to attract viewers. if you say you make gabber in holland, people will like it more. if you say you make hardcore in the US, people will like it more. doesnt matter to me.

if i were to use a subgenre for my music, it would be asymmetric-noisecore or something like that, but that wouldnt get many listeners, so i call it breakcore/gabber in europe and breakcore/hardcore in the US. that way i get the breakcore crowd and the gabber/hardcore crowd.


Yeah, genres make more sense on fliers. I live in Canada, and we have no issues with the term Gabber or Jungle. Gabber is kind of a specifically dutch flavour of hardcore. A lot of the hardcore people hear out here is either French or from the UK so Gabber kind of fits well.

With Jungle, it kind of has some negative connotations, but if you look at a lot of the vocal material that gets mash-up treatment, a lot of it is from old dancehall and reggae tracks, where you can hear the terms 'jungle' and 'junglist' in reference to a part of Kingston called the gardens. Like, "Jungle mon dem a soulja" etc. It was a section of kingston that was green, so the people there were called junglists. So it's not totally a racial term. A lot of the early jungle pioneers were black, though, like Remarc and Shy FX.

But the thing about jungle and drum and bass is that now they seem to have diverged enough to actually be distinctly different. Early on there was some stuff that kind of sat on the line (some of Dillinja's early stuff is an example) There was sort of a revival of the old school jungle sound after jump-up and techstep and all of those other dnb subgenres formed that I think the term is apt again. There are some structural differences, and different things done with synths and samples, all of that. The builds and intros are kind of different, and a different sort of movement of rhythm happens, most of the time, with a lot more rolls and things in jungle. And there seems to be less of a focus on the mid in jungle than in drum and bass usually.

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Postby SilicosiS » Tue Mar 10, 2009 5:03 am

Nibiru wrote:But noise isn't necessarily a genre of music so much as a type of sound that falls outside of the laws of harmonics. The art people make with pure noise isn't really music in the sense that music has something to do with rhythm and melody, or at least one of those things. Noises can be used artistically in many kinds of music, but straight, raw noise being manipulated I can't consider music because it doesn't use tones and has nothing to do with harmonics. One of the more pretentious things I've heard it called was "anti-music".

It's interesting, the way people define "music." In high-school I was taught that music is the controlled use of sound and silence. That piano piece that John Cage "composed" where nothing is played by the performer at all is music because of the control. Supposedly the "music" is the sounds made by the audience watching, which is obviously left up to chance, but the performer is careful to not knock any keys and therefore is controlling the piano. This is what makes it music, apparently.

If we assume this is correct, then the art people make with noise is music, too, even though melody and rythm are not used. I don't listen to noise, but if an artist just takes pure white noise and, say, sweeps a filter cutoff around, then s/he is controlling more than just the mere presence of white noise and it is more musical than a number of John Cage pieces. IMO, control of timbre is just as important and expressive in music (especially in this day and age) as melody and rythm.

Nibiru wrote:I can't consider music because it doesn't use tones and has nothing to do with harmonics


Does this mean a percussion ensemble can't make music? I guess you prolly just forgot to mention a lack of rythm or something.

In summary, I reckon the definition of music I mentioned is pretty much right, it's just that music sucks without at least one of these things: Control of timbre, rythmic structures, melody (or bassline, or chord progression... let's just say a squence of set frequencies). If it's got all three then it's more interesting.

Oh, and I think "anti-music" is a stupid term.

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Postby HORSE FORCE » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:57 am

but early hip hop and current hip hop are way more different than early jungle and current dnb. just like hip hop, its still drum and bass/jungle. some people say "oh this is hip hop, this is rap" but anyone who makes hip hop or rap uses them interchangably. do jungle/dnb producers make the clear distinction? i dont know many of them so im not sure.

also, noise is just noise, until you put it in some sort of rhythmic structure. music vs cacophony. music must have at least rhythm OR harmony (or intentional harmonic content) OR melody. its not to say that making noise isnt an art, its just not music. a lot of people argue whether pop music is art too.

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Postby Nibiru » Tue Mar 10, 2009 12:06 pm

HORSE FORCE wrote:but early hip hop and current hip hop are way more different than early jungle and current dnb. just like hip hop, its still drum and bass/jungle. some people say "oh this is hip hop, this is rap" but anyone who makes hip hop or rap uses them interchangably. do jungle/dnb producers make the clear distinction? i dont know many of them so im not sure.



For sure a lot of jungle producers are making the distinction. There's even sort of a difference between newschool and oldschool jungle that isn't just drum and bass vs jungle. A lot of the second wave of producers like Twinhooker, 16armedjack, Krinjah and others that popped out of North America after the classic jungle sound waned in the UK have been pushing a bit of a harder, faster kind of sound. And There are some things you'll practically never hear in any of the more mainstream or fresher styles of dnb, like sub basslines made out of 808 kick samples. If old funk and soul breaks like the amen and think and apache are being used in dnb, they're often arranged, layered and processed a fair bit differently. And often, but not always, jungle goes for a trickier sort of style of drum programming, with lots of rolls and syncopation, depending on what kind of bass, vocals or melodic devices are going on.

I think the distinction was harder to make at one time, but they both kind of forked sharply since the 90s, and the sort of attitude among a lot of producers making more classic jungle is towards keeping the distinction, because drum and bass kind of blew up really fast and the classic sound dwindled, a lot of producers in the UK riding with the trend of straighter rhythms, wobble bass and lots of other things that are often considered a step away from the older style.

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Postby bunnybird » Fri Apr 03, 2009 6:33 pm

no link?

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Postby Sir.Vixx » Mon Apr 06, 2009 4:25 pm

Noise music=Trash. music needs a beat thats just my opinion.

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Postby Warpsmasher » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:26 am

Sir.Vixx wrote:Noise music=Trash. music needs a beat thats just my opinion.

When you approach noise as a form of abstract art, it's easier to understand and get into. No beats, no riffs, no choruses or repetetive structures, just free flowing soundscapes, that's the beauty of it. Just think of the various sounds as splashes of color on a splatter painting, or different brush textures. Stuff like Masonna and Merzbow is easy to hate, but artists that can establish a sense of atmosphere, make you visualize different places, and actually create listenable compositions from noise are true craftsmen. KK Null, Desiderii Marginis, Lustmord, Schloss Tegal, Supersilent, Bastard Noise to name a few. I think the ones that incorporate the ambient soundscape elements are more along the lines of "noise music", whereas stuff like Merzbow and Incapacitants is just noise. KK Null is probably the best "medium" between the two styles, using both the harsh sounds and the atmospheric ambience.

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Postby BrainEater » Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:27 pm

Maaann,this video of youtube,is,very very crazy shit xD
what takes the guy at the beginning of his track???

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Postby MattiMatticz » Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:16 pm

i think it bepends on the band if the have a lot of different breaks and its not only 1 style

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Postby Schehe » Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:11 pm

... i think no

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