Order of aplying effects important? (breaks+samples)

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Order of aplying effects important? (breaks+samples)

Postby Volor » Fri Nov 02, 2007 2:50 pm

Is the order of the effects you apply to your hits of any importance?(or any other sound samples for that matter)if so,with wich effects and wich specific order.

e.g.:

snare hit=>apply distortion=>pitch shift=>final sample A

snare hit=>pitch shift=>apply distortion=>final sample B

(note:the amount of distorion and pitch shift is assumed equal in both cases evidently)

Q:Is the final sample A = final sample B ,or are they because of the specific effects aplied in that order(or because it "damages","uncleans" the sample in a way audio information is lost)diffrent in a way?

(the distortion-pitch shift is merely an example,so if there arent any changes between those 2 samples,it doesnt necessaraly mean it is the case for other effects and other orders.

V

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Postby avisupchurch » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:58 am

I'd have to say with the example you gave it's not really going to matter, unless by "pitch shifting" you mean you're doing quasi-melodic stuff with your snares.... then maybe you'll want to apply a distortion effect after your sequencing/pitch-shifting to add more uniformity to your sound or something. But as a rule of thumb, I almost NEVER process stuff post-sequencing-- for multiple reasons. For one thing, running too many effects in your sequencing program will make your track cluttered, which can significantly slow down your composing. Also, if you put compression on your drums and you want to sequence some really quick notes in a row, the compressor will treat that stream of notes as a single hit and give you a good bite on the first one or two, but then the actual compression (amplitude reduction) will occur on the rest of them and you'll just get a roll with an accent at the beginning. Adding distortion to your sequences acts like a limiter/compressor and will be a pain in the ass for your dynamics... along with reducing clarity in your fast stuff....

If treating a break, I would do: Distortion -> EQ -> Compression
I don't think you really need any other effects, but if you do, just experiment and see what works best for the sound you want. If you're doing more than that to your break there's a good chance you're over-processing it...

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Postby Volor » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:35 pm

thnx for the advice avis,very helpfull mate : )

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Postby Volor » Mon Nov 05, 2007 5:42 pm

ah,i bumped into some other good advice involving the order of effects,its about gating:

"Gates should come before every other DSP in the chain(renoise), ESPECIALLY DISTORTION. Gating after distortion is pointless, as the sound data the gate uses to trigger(ie: volume threshold) is lost with distortion. If a break you’re using is already distorted to all hell, don’t be afraid to chop it and envelope the volume in the instrument editor."
(quote by bytesmasher)

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Postby avisupchurch » Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:56 am

Volor wrote:ah,i bumped into some other good advice involving the order of effects,its about gating:

"Gates should come before every other DSP in the chain(renoise), ESPECIALLY DISTORTION. Gating after distortion is pointless, as the sound data the gate uses to trigger(ie: volume threshold) is lost with distortion. If a break you’re using is already distorted to all hell, don’t be afraid to chop it and envelope the volume in the instrument editor."
(quote by bytesmasher)



This seems like a software-specific thing... as I said before, I don't use auto-gates.... I do it all manually...

But, something I did for the track I currently have in progress that seemed to work well:

Take a noisy, distorted drum hit, whose amplitude is fairly uniform throughout the sample because of the distortion.... and give it a little shape with an amplitude envelope (I used Audacity's envelope maker which is very nice to work with) This can result in some really cool-sounding, yet musically useful samples.... and you don't have to make it all choppy sounding by gating it to hell...

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Postby Volor » Wed Nov 07, 2007 3:01 pm

sounds cool(your explanation),I tried it,but I'm guessing the thing i end up with isnt exactly what you explained.Could you post an audio sample of the distorted hit in particular and then the same distorted hit,but with your effect applied to it?

thnx!

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Postby avisupchurch » Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:09 pm

I'm pretty strapped for time, ATM, but in a couple days I will post some examples.

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Postby avisupchurch » Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:29 am

let me try to explain the amplitude envelope thing...
once you add distortion to a hit, the waveform will probably resemble a block.... with mostly uniform amplitude.
use whatever amplitude adjustment tool you have in your wave editor to reshape it so it looks more like a tapered wedge |>
it's pretty subtle and not all that exciting, but it's a nice alternative to compression, limiting or gating. if you want i can still put up an example.

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Postby arlekin_jota » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:49 pm

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pst me vale

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Postby Alan_ » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:05 pm

in general, the order you put effects on can completely change the sound. I really wouldn't have a "correct" order to give you as that would completely depend on what end sound you are looking for.

Think of it this way: whatever color the effect adds to the sound is added to whatever sound is coming across that effect from the previous point in the chain.

I agree that autogating a really distorted sound with really consistent volume levels (which most really distorted sounds will have) ain't gonna do a thing.

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Postby Volor » Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:12 pm

avisupchurch wrote:let me try to explain the amplitude envelope thing...
once you add distortion to a hit, the waveform will probably resemble a block.... with mostly uniform amplitude.
use whatever amplitude adjustment tool you have in your wave editor to reshape it so it looks more like a tapered wedge |>
it's pretty subtle and not all that exciting, but it's a nice alternative to compression, limiting or gating. if you want i can still put up an example.



ye,that wud be sweet

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Postby BYTE-Smasher » Wed Feb 27, 2008 3:22 pm

avisupchurch wrote:
Volor wrote:ah,i bumped into some other good advice involving the order of effects,its about gating:

"Gates should come before every other DSP in the chain(renoise), ESPECIALLY DISTORTION. Gating after distortion is pointless, as the sound data the gate uses to trigger(ie: volume threshold) is lost with distortion. If a break you’re using is already distorted to all hell, don’t be afraid to chop it and envelope the volume in the instrument editor."
(quote by bytesmasher)



This seems like a software-specific thing... as I said before, I don't use auto-gates.... I do it all manually...

It's not specific to Renoise... threshold controlled gating can be used in any effect chain, in any DAW, and it's very useful for making your distorted drums more crisp/punchy. In this instance, the order of the effects does very much matter, no matter which software you use, and if you try the methods I posted in that tutorial, and switch the order of the effects, you will see instantly how drastic the change is. Automatic noise gates such as this are often used in higher end distortion pedals and amplifiers to gate the line noise from the mix before distorting so you don't get that loud hum on your guitar. Glad to see someone is finding a use for that tutorial btw ;)
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